Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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considering Everybruce hasnt posted in quite a while i guess that tells us how it went.

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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considering Everybruce hasnt posted in quite a while i guess that tells us how it went.

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incorrect - i'm everybruce, and i'm banned until next thursday on an entirely unrelated matter.

User **** is banned
Last login: 2009.05.06 21:00
Number of visits: 1023
Reason: EULA Violation - Offensive language.
Until: 2009.05.13

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Just wanted to point out that neither everybruce or the lady have a contract matching one they claim was accepted

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This is not considered a EULA violation. You are free to keep the ISK.

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Originally by: Inenin I

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Just wanted to point out that you never took into account that private contracts can't be publically viewed, finished or not. Also wanted to point out neither was the character that I sold the sleipnir to him with.

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Just wanted to point out that item exchanges / private, can still be viewed publically when finished.

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Originally by: Inenin I

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Edited by: Lady Cynosural on 10/05/2009 10:52:58

Originally by: Inenin I

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Just wanted to point out that you never took into account that private contracts can't be publically viewed, finished or not. Also wanted to point out neither was the character that I sold the sleipnir to him with.

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Just wanted to point out that item exchanges / private, can still be viewed publically when finished.

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incorrect - as I can't look the sleipnir sale up on the character I did it with.
And you would be incorrect on your bull**** claim :) :)

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Hehe - okay I'll admit to making a tiny mistake - but there was no need to get nasty about it.
You can see item exchanges / private on the character that did them - which made me think they were public for a moment there - just checked up on that, and no, you can't see the private ones publically
No wonder you got banned for bad language...

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Originally by: Telinturco

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You're in the clear? But you can't quote the whole convo, can you?

Hrmmm... well, obvious proof would be you posting in this thread again on the 13th, wouldn't it? Unless the guy that paid 17B for a Sleph wants to confirm that he's received similar word from GM's...

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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Originally by: Xtreem

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if i was the buyer i would pass this on to a senior GM, its too close to do anything but not to ban, but to return the isk, then make the rules more clear imo

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Precisely what I'm going for.

The first ruling also did not take into account that Ed Gein's char does have a forum post up, nor does it take into account the 2 prior rulings which I linked in further correspondance (sp?). I expect to hear something back on monday from the lower level GM, and if it isn't what i want to hear I will escalate the issue to a senior GM, and then move on to the eve marketting team if necessary (AKA the people who care about how many subscriptions/char transfers there are).

A previous poster hit the nail on the head - This issue is too close to the line for them to justify the loss of a subscription, and the opportunity loss from character transfers decreasing in frequency. More than likely it will be a "Here's the isk because the rules are unclear, but in the future be very wary with character transfers." Moreover, I expect them to change the specifics of the char transfer threads.

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Originally by: Dzil

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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A previous poster hit the nail on the head - This issue is too close to the line for them to justify the loss of a subscription, and the opportunity loss from character transfers decreasing in frequency. More than likely it will be a "Here's the isk because the rules are unclear, but in the future be very wary with character transfers." Moreover, I expect them to change the specifics of the char transfer threads.

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I would certainly pursue this to the senior GM level, as it IS close and warrents the most careful scrutiny CCP has to offer. However, I disagree with you on two points:

1. Nothing's too close to call - that's what GMs get paid to do - Making the hard calls, applying the rules even when they appear to be evil, insensitive clods in doing so. You're saying simultaneously that Everybruce might be right, but CCP has no choice but to return the money?
2. Threatening to rage quit over getting scammed? You may be right - Everybruce probably won't rage quit if he doesn't get to keep the 17b isk. But that alone is a terrible reason to judge on a particular side. The impression that GMs will bias towards their income rather than their own ruleset could have longer term implications on the number of subscriptions, in my opinion.

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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How exactly do you know what the ruling was based on - considering it was made only yesterday?

They took 6 days to come to a decision, so no doubt it was escalated to senior GMs who have decided on the issue. Accept it!

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Because the reason given to me, and the information you gave, did not encompass the whole story :). What do you have to worry about though? You think you're in the clear ^_-

Moreover, it was a different GM who responded to my petition, leading me to believe that they weren't linked (I recieved my answer on thursday).

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[15:11:53] Kaptain Klo > Lo
[15:12:16] Jamie Bonnaro > so whats going on with the petition
[15:12:22] Jamie Bonnaro > suppose you can guess who i am
[15:12:59] Kaptain Klo > Ah, I guess I can.
[15:13:08] Jamie Bonnaro > Could you quote what the GM said please?
[15:13:09] Kaptain Klo > The GM retracted his initial ruling against my character petition
[15:13:14] Kaptain Klo > Can't quote
[15:13:18] Kaptain Klo > But my GM
[15:13:34] Kaptain Klo > reversed the intial ruling because there was in fact a character post on the bazaar
[15:13:37] Jamie Bonnaro > Could you reword it?
[15:14:06] Jamie Bonnaro > ah, so it wasn't the decision on my petition 3 days after yours?
[15:14:34] Kaptain Klo > Correct, it was the decision against mine because I didn't link your character bazaar post with the intial petition
[15:14:49] Kaptain Klo > BTW, shall I give the GM this characters name to negotiate with?
[15:15:06] Kaptain Klo > THey aren't certain how to contact you, due to the ban.
[15:15:17] Jamie Bonnaro > go ahead
[15:16:31] Kaptain Klo > Sent the message, not sure if they will or won't contact you on that char.
[15:16:50] Kaptain Klo > But basically, they denied it initially because they thought there was no post at all on the char bazaar
[15:17:29] Jamie Bonnaro > what about the response to my petition?
[15:17:34] Kaptain Klo > THey aren't linked.
[15:18:07] Kaptain Klo > So we'll just have to see :)
[15:18:37] Jamie Bonnaro > okay
[15:18:43] Jamie Bonnaro > things have got interesting again..
[15:20:30] Jamie Bonnaro > would have thought they would have investigated it fully
[15:21:13] Kaptain Klo > With thousands of petitions each day, do you really think they have the time to go in-depth for 15-30 minutes searching for forum posts and logs?
[15:21:22] Kaptain Klo > You've clearly never worked customer support :P
[15:21:34] Kaptain Klo > It's all about resolutions per hour.
[15:22:19] Jamie Bonnaro > surely by not investigating exceptional cases well it would take up more time by having to go back over it
[15:53:33] Jamie Bonnaro > there's a high possibility you could be bluffing as a last ditch attempt to get me to give you the money
[15:53:43] Kaptain Klo > lol
[15:53:46] Kaptain Klo > k
[15:54:09] Kaptain Klo > If I wanted you to just give me the money, I would've continued our conversation from several days ago
[15:54:49] Kaptain Klo > GM must be afk, I did send your chars name in the peition.
[15:55:30] Jamie Bonnaro > I would imagine that for a 17.5 billion scam, one of the largest single scams in eve - of a character based nature - they would investigate it as fully as possible
[15:57:05] Kaptain Klo > lol, ok. Now we're just getting silly again, like last time. We'll just have to wait and see I suppose.

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Originally by: Matrix Skye

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Edited by: Matrix Skye on 11/05/2009 17:42:59
This is going to come down to how well the victim can present his case and not much to do with the scammer. The victim needs to make sure he includes EVERY DETAIL AND PROOF. So far it doesn't look like he's done a good job at it and I bet it's the reason the first ruling was against him.

To the victim,

The case is in your favor. But you'll need to work harder in presenting it, as it doesn't seem you've done so yet. Turn in everything you have, chat logs, emails, names, etc, heck, even this thread may be used as evidence . And explain every detail without leaving anything out. Getting your iskies back will depend on YOU and YOU alone.

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Originally by: M Smart

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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I saw an opportunity to sell off my sleipnir which was gathering dust in my hangar, though i'd gladly buy it back off him for say.. 300m, a bit of a markdown on what he bought it for unfortunately :(

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true enough but looking at the evemails you posted you did lure him with a char sale..
clearly you misunderstand what you just did , you are going to lose your 17.5 and your account to which it belonged. i trade toons on 7 accounts all the time ( this one is my latest perchase) your convo with buyer was all in order having done 50 myself .
i think you will lose for the following reasons:
1. you violated rules of char. transfer ( no assets, you clearly asked for more money if included assets , your buyer declined)
2. if you think GM havent seen your logs and such you truly are a foolish person.
dont let the time that passed be a compass has to which way this is going.. you are going to lose CCP most likly discussing how best to wack you two clowns.
3. really not a good scam.
4. simply put you if your lucky you get isk and lose toon , no ban just a warning
worst case you lose iskies and get banned
5. and posting smart arse comments like this is gonna bury you deeper.

all and all , your done.......can i have your stuff....

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TBQH, if they formally (ie; GM communication) let you off the hook, CCP is in a pretty tough spot IF they are actually re-reviewing. They'll have to make a call between reversing an official position or setting a precident that they may not be that happy about.

Were I managing this game, I would just maintain the decision and work on an in-game solution to handle these transactions securely and safely for the next update. It would be a short player storm to weather. Reversing a decision of this scale is too compromising to the GM staff and sets its own nasty precidents.

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"Hi.

No, I'm sorry. Character scams in any form are prohibited. We might have been unclear on this earlier, but this is our decision."

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Hi.

Senior ******** here. I apologize for the late reply.

This comes down to you putting up a character sale on the forums, a sale that you never intended to go through with. That we consider to be a scam.
The first reply you received, from GM Horse, was sent out before we knew of the forum thread where you put the character up for sale.

We also realize that a part of this is the other player's fault, by not following the rules, but we can not look past the scenario around this scam."

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